Do the statistics tell the real story?

[Kakunga]

Originally Posted by BTP

so would you say that the Bengals,Steelers,Vikings and Raven all have bad/not so great defensive's as well?

You're right to some extent stats don't always tell the whole story. Stats also don't take into account of injuries or human error.



Uh wait what? Reality to what,Kakunga? Um No,reality would be that we were a good defensive team this year. No matter how you want to sit here and spin this.

Maybe you want go back to last seasons defense and start recalling exactly how bad that defense was. Yikes man. This defense how improved head and shoulders from last season and some of you still are not happy around here. Just wow!



so what? why rehash old crap? What relevance does that have to this topic other then the start trouble and or more "I told you so" crap that you just got blasted for in another thread earlier this week? Yeah your such a victim around here huh?

Good defensive teams don't get lit up like they did by Pittsburgh and Arizona. Green Bay did well against one good QB. Tony Romo.
Favre, Big Ben and Warner were able to destroy our pass defense. You can fool yourself into thinking we are the number 2 defense if you want to. The Packer 3-4 did confuse less experienced QBs.
And I think Our defense is better than last years. We were 6-10 last year. I certainly hope we were better. But to get deep into the playoffs the defense needs to improve. I'm just saying I really don't think we had the #2 defense in the NFL.

[NYPACKER]

Originally Posted by Kakunga

Good defensive teams don't get lit up like they did by Pittsburgh and Arizona. Green Bay did well against one good QB. Tony Romo.
Favre, Big Ben and Warner were able to destroy our pass defense. You can fool yourself into thinking we are the number 2 defense if you want to. The Packer 3-4 did confuse less experienced QBs.
And I think Our defense is better than last years. We were 6-10 last year. I certainly hope we were better. But to get deep into the playoffs the defense needs to improve. I'm just saying I really don't think we had the #2 defense in the NFL.

....yes looking at the games this weekend really highlights how ranking are deceiving. Take the Colts (ranked 18th) & Saints (ranked 25th). Both squads this weekend looked better than our second ranked defense. What do they have they we don't? IMHO they have defensive lineman that can get pressure without having to blitz. Cullen Jenkins is our best pass rushing dlineman & he isn't close to Smith from NO or Freeney from Indy. In addition those teams pass coverages seem to do a better job of taking away the middle of the field. I voiced concern over this after our preseason game vs. the Cards & it was never really fixed. Let'sd hope we find some answers this offseason.

[Mike F]

Raji has received, basically d's. Don't get me wrong, his injury and his holdout were somewhat disappointing, but he's no Justin Harrell. He has very good brute strength. I think he'll be fine against the run and great maybe at collapsing and pushing the pocket with time. To me Pickett isn't in his class so why they are so fascinated in Pickett surprises me some. But in the 3-4, it all starts with the nose and then the de's occupying people and the LB's making plays. Yeah, if they could pick up a Seymour or draft a 310 lb guy who could rush from the de, sure it would help, but in my mind, it comes down to the OLB position opposite Matthews. You are looking for a 6'4" hybrid 255 guy who can rush standing up. If they get the other OLB, improve with smarts at barnett's spot, he's not that smart, and get Raji where he should be, I think Jenkins is better, Matthews is even better.

I want to be clear, I think Barnett was a smart pick and good choice by Sherman, but he's no longer a youngster, and he starts fast ends slow and in three playoff games has played very dumb making big mistakes. If they could trade him to a 4-3 team and get 3 value, take the deal and use the money elsewhere. I believe if they get a vet at the spot Barnett and Bigby were, someone who plays smart and is the right place, they win more. They flat out don't need projects in those two areas and need smarter than what they have.

Thompson may have had a home run draft, the best in the modern era, I'm completely honest, but to be fair 2008 was just adequate and 2007 bad. To think you're going to the draft store and pluck a couple of players like Matthews and Raji off the shelf is nuts. Not saying anyone here is saying that, but people a lot of places are. I don't think Thompson has to hit homeruns this offseason, but I think he has to take advantage of a window with Woodson especially. You just don't get as many bites at the apple as they have since 2007, now seems the time to try to piece together a real run at a SB. It appears to me, maybe what Favre and the Vikings appear poised to do could be just the spur in the saddle to help Thompson and Murphy to gain an increased sense of urgency to take advantage of every avenue to improve. I think there close enough that activity ala 2006 when they made 3 moves and tried for a 4th major signing could really push them over the top.

[retiredgrampa]

Ahh, yes. But I don't really believe that TT views the team the same way. I believe he (and MM) are too attached to our present squad, i.e. Barnett, Hawk, 3 FBs, etc., to make any major moves. They also over-estimate the value of their hand-picked guys such as Geocomini, Barbre, Bush, etc., to begin again at their spots. Loyalty and the hope of improvement are fine attributes but if a player hasn't improved enough to rate activation on Sunday after 2-3 yrs., he just using up cap space. Get someone else to try his skills.

[Mike F]

but he did admit some mistakes and did make some adjustments. I don't honestly expect Thompson to make a huge move on an OT in free agency or the draft. I do though believe there are 3 areas he will be willing to significantly upgrade: Safety, a pass rushing OLB, and a weapon KR. Interestingly, I do buy what Arrigo is pitching and mentioned here, watch the 2 Pitt S. I agree with Arrigo, at 12:01 if Clark hits the market, the Pack should be chasing. Similarly, I can see interest, real interest in either Cribbs or Merriman.

They really are at a stage, where a lot of the people internally are what they are, some belles of the balls, and some warts. To expect a wart like Harrell, some of the OL, Lee and others to sprout wings and fly, is pretty stupid. I don't think Thompson is stupid. Further if Favre as he appears poised to does go on and get the SB, the map will change and if there was any patience to plod that too will change. Honestly, I hope he wins a SB, it's good for football, and I think it will instill a desire to win another Lombardi for us that is much higher than it is today. Just my view and hope we ratchet up our efforts.

[NYPACKER]

Originally Posted by Mike F

I don't think Thompson is stupid. Further if Favre as he appears poised to does go on and get the SB, the map will change and if there was any patience to plod that too will change. Honestly, I hope he wins a SB, it's good for football, and I think it will instill a desire to win another Lombardi for us that is much higher than it is today. Just my view and hope we ratchet up our efforts.

...you really think that TT sits around and says to himself "if that darn Favre goes to the SB I'm going to have to go out and get some free agents"??? If TT has shown one thing in his years here it is that he is immune to being influenced by public opinion or "perceived" pressure.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by NYPACKER

...you really think that TT sits around and says to himself "if that darn Favre goes to the SB I'm going to have to go out and get some free agents"??? If TT has shown one thing in his years here it is that he is immune to being influenced by public opinion or "perceived" pressure.

But I don't think the Executive Committee and Murphy are immune to public sentiment and the need to win. I also think many around Thompson including Murphy but not limited will be under pressure if Favre wins another ring, to justify decisions. I think Thompson has some pride and it will ratchet up urgency in my view, anyone who is competitive, if a decision they made were under a microscope, I believe would want to show themselves right. So yes, absolutely I believe it would more incentive for the entire organization, I will give you this, Thompson might be less effected in a general sense, but Murphy and others around him wouldn't.

I also would say as I have before, out of all of this Rodgers has been probably most impacted. I think the expectations placed on him are and have been unrealistic. He should never be forced to compared to a great QB. The problem for him is this comparison has been out there that he's better than Favre. He maybe better than 39 or 40 year old vintage, but Favre is a player with a "great career" experience. I don't think Rodgers is that kind of player. I hope he could and would aspire to be a Manning or Montana, but even that will require work and a lot of luck. We can kid ourselves if we want, but the OL wasn't as bad likely as Rodgers made them look. He had trouble at times with pressure and with getting rid of the ball. To get where he and they want him, he has to fix it, some never do. I think he can, but he has to make improvements next season.

The issue is does Thompson stick to the mantra to improve from within and get younger. I contend, that if Favre does go on to the SB and win the ring, the pride factor, the competitive factor, and the constant revisit that would occur from that event, will make the organization step up their urgency and result in a better club next season, if they are real competitors.

[kainen]

Originally Posted by Mike F

I contend, that if Favre does go on to the SB and win the ring, the pride factor, the competitive factor, and the constant revisit that would occur from that event, will make the organization step up their urgency and result in a better club next season, if they are real competitors.

Sorry..that dog don't hunt with me.

The quest for the SuperBowl has nothing whatsoever to do with TOG. It is the goal of every team, every season - as it should be. If anything motivates our team, it will be the results of THIS past season and not ancient history regarding the circus.

The Packers are two years removed from it. Questions about the "decision" (and I say that word facetiously) have all been asked and answered.

[Champ]

Originally Posted by kainen

The Packers are two years removed from it. Questions about the "decision" (and I say that word facetiously) have all been asked and answered.

Questions have been asked and there have been many answers. But there has been no uniformity in the answers, so there is no resolution.

Favre's continued success this year has kept "the decision" of two years ago front and center in the NFL spotlight.

Claimiing the Packers are two years removed from "it", when the topic is still brought up so consistently is living in denial.

[EnglishPatient]

Originally Posted by Champ

Questions have been asked and there have been many answers. But there has been no uniformity in the answers, so there is no resolution.

Favre's continued success this year has kept "the decision" of two years ago front and center in the NFL spotlight.

Claimiing the Packers are two years removed from "it", when the topic is still brought up so consistently is living in denial.

Provoke all you want but the way Favre engineered his release from the Jets and Andrew Brandt's confirmation of his earlier disillusionment with TT's management style has given the game away. I can't see how Favre is any different from TO or Randy Moss: highly talented yet selfish players who lose interest in playing for particular franchises and find ways of moving on to a team that offers them more "respect". Let's face it: Favre parachuted into a team that was already a decent QB away from a serious SB run. The Vikings haven't won the SB yet, but even if they do it won't change anything. Favre will have found a team that gave him what he wanted and the "spotlight" will be on him, not the Vikings, Jets or Packers. As Cris Collinsworth remarked on commentary the other day, if Favre wins a SB ring with the Vikings, "he's outta there". Enjoy the smack while you can.

Getting back on topic, the stats show is that the new 3-4 defense has made a promising start but the meltdowns against Pitt and AZ also show that it is still a few players and another training camp away from enabling the Packers to compete with the best.

[Champ]

Originally Posted by EnglishPatient

Provoke all you want...

No provocation attempted or intended. Responding to what was posted. Anyone claiming that all the questions have been asked and answered are being disingenuos.

I can't see how Favre is any different from TO or Randy Moss: highly talented yet selfish players who lose interest in playing for particular franchises and find ways of moving on to a team that offers them more "respect".

How you can post that with a straight face is beyond my comprehension. Favre gave 16 complete seasons to the Packers. After his 3rd game as a Packer, he went on to start every single game in the balance of his Packer career. He reported to TC in 2008 and the HC and GM refused to let him on the field.

Enjoy the smack while you can.

I didn't post any smack here.

Getting back on topic, the stats show is that the new 3-4 defense has made a promising start but the meltdowns against Pitt and AZ also show that it is still a few players and another training camp away from enabling the Packers to compete with the best.

It wasn't just the Pitt and AZ game. It's been widely reported that against the elite QB's of the NFL, the new 3 - 4 defense performed poorly.

Allowing 51, 37, 38 and 30 points to Warner, Rothlisberger and Favre showed that elite QB's can and will pick it apart.

They did have one "signature win" - against Dallas and Tony Romo. The Packer D made Romo's life miserable that game.

Green Bay did well against the rest of the NFL. But the rest of the NFL was the 2 -14 Lions (twice), the 7 - 9 Chicago Bears (twice), the 1 - 15 Rams, the 5 - 11 Seahawks, the 8 - 8 49ers, the 5 - 11 Browns.

They also beat the 9 - 7 Ravens who had a middle of the road offense, but they lost to the 10 - 6 Bengals and the 3 - 13 Bucs who had offenses mired in the bottom third of the NFL.

Whether a couple more players and another training camp will take the Packers to the level you project remains to be seen. And remember, you have current starters that are FA's next season. Will they be resigned?

[EnglishPatient]

Originally Posted by Champ

After his 3rd game as a Packer, he went on to start every single game in the balance of his Packer career. He reported to TC in 2008 and the HC and GM refused to let him on the field.

This is from http://www.packers.com/news/stories/2008/08/05/3/
After roughly six hours of conversation with Brett Favre on Monday and Tuesday, Packers Head Coach Mike McCarthy said he and Favre concluded the future Hall of Fame quarterback was "not in the right mindset" to play football for Green Bay.

That was the essence of the extended talks between McCarthy and Favre, which went well into the night Monday and resumed on Tuesday before practice. McCarthy said Favre had no qualms about potentially competing for the starting job with Aaron Rodgers, but that too much "damage" had been done over the past six weeks for him to want to fully commit to playing for the Packers.

"It's pretty complex as far as the way he feels, the chain of events, the path that we have taken to get here," McCarthy said. "It's not as simple as No. 4 running out there playing football."

So with that, Favre did not attend practice on Tuesday and instead returned to his house in Green Bay, where McCarthy said he and his family were meeting with General Manager Ted Thompson about other options. McCarthy did not comment on media reports indicating potential trade destinations, but he indicated Favre wants to play football this season, just not in Green Bay.

It doesn't matter whose side you take over this, to claim that Favre reported to training camp and that TT and MM "refused to let him on the field" is both misleading and disingenuous. What do you care anyway?

[Champ]

Originally Posted by EnglishPatient

It doesn't matter whose side you take over this, to claim that Favre reported to training camp and that TT and MM "refused to let him on the field" is both misleading and disingenuous. What do you care anyway?

The guy reported to TC. And MM kept him locked away in his office for 6 hours instead of letting him on the field like any other player.

What MM said, and what actually transpired is one of those questions that may never be completely answered.

Remember, before TC started, it was conveyed that Brett would be welcome to come in and compete for the starting job.

Evidently, when Brett took them up on their offer, MM and TT panicked and were afraid to let the competition begin.

The commissioner even had to get involved, giving the Packers a special exception, as the Packers were in violation of the CBA by not allowing Brett into TC.

TT finally consummated the trade to NY - inserting a poison pill into the deal (which of course was a terrible thing when the VIKES did it with Steve Hutchinson, but totally legit when the Packers did it - according to the G&G faithful anyway) - to prevent Favre from being traded to any team in the NFC North.

[reck]

Originally Posted by EnglishPatient

What do you care anyway?

This is the essence of it. As I posted in another thread, the team this poster roots for is days away from playing in the NFC championship game and look where he is: Trying to bait and/or stir up shit on a Packers’ board. We're witness to a serious obsession going on here…

Packers fans, imagine if the Packers were about to play in the NFC Championship game. How much time would you be spending stirring up shit in another team’s forum?

Two questions:

What do you suppose “champ” posted about brent before he became a queen?

Can you define “hypocrite”?

[EnglishPatient]

Originally Posted by Champ

The guy reported to TC. And MM kept him locked away in his office for 6 hours instead of letting him on the field like any other player.

What MM said, and what actually transpired is one of those questions that may never be completely answered.

Remember, before TC started, it was conveyed that Brett would be welcome to come in and compete for the starting job.

Evidently, when Brett took them up on their offer, MM and TT panicked and were afraid to let the competition begin.

The commissioner even had to get involved, giving the Packers a special exception, as the Packers were in violation of the CBA by not allowing Brett into TC.

TT finally consummated the trade to NY - inserting a poison pill into the deal (which of course was a terrible thing when the VIKES did it with Steve Hutchinson, but totally legit when the Packers did it - according to the G&G faithful anyway) - to prevent Favre from being traded to any team in the NFC North.

Now you are just making stuff up. Favre was formally reinstated by Goodell on August 3, arrived in Green Bay the next day and was added to the Packers roster. His mandatory physical on August 4 revealed an abdominal strain, on the basis of which he was "excused" from practice on August 5, his last day as a Green Bay Packer. The six hours of conversation between Favre and McCarthy took placed over two days; he was not handcuffed and locked in McCarthy's office as you would like to imagine. According to ESPN (the news agency, not the idiot), TT had asked the Favre camp for time to work out a trade the previous week. That tells you everything you need to know about Favre's true plans. But of course, casting Favre as a victim gives you a better chance of baiting Packers fans.

[Galileo]

Now you are just making stuff up. Favre was formally reinstated by Goodell on August 3, arrived in Green Bay the next day and was added to the Packers roster. His mandatory physical on August 4 revealed an abdominal strain, on the basis of which he was "excused" from practice on August 5, his last day as a Green Bay Packer. The six hours of conversation between Favre and McCarthy took placed over two days; he was not handcuffed and locked in McCarthy's office as you would like to imagine. According to ESPN (the news agency, not the idiot), TT had asked the Favre camp for time to work out a trade the previous week. That tells you everything you need to know about Favre's true plans. But of course, casting Favre as a victim gives you a better chance of baiting Packers fans.

Yeah, facts really suck sometime but the fact is Favre didn't want to return to the Packers and his whole return to Green Bay was just to "force something in there and make a play" because the regular season was getting ready to start and he wanted to play for the Vikings.

The Packers had been trying to work out a trade but Favre had refused to give them a list of teams he'd be willing to accept a trade to. According to a Press-Gazette article Thompson had called a number of teams to see if they were interested (many were not).

This was all about forcing the Packers hand and getting his release. Once he finally got it driven into his swampbilly head that the Packers were not going to release him for nothing and they were not going to trade him to the Vikings he finally capitulated and said "OK, fine, work out a trade". And the trade was done in short order.

Favre went to the Jets but I doubt like hell he ever intended to end his career there or play more than one year for them. At that point, he was being driven by his desire to join the Vikings (who he'd had multiple discussions with over the past several months) and "stick it" to Thompson, the organization, the Packers and the fans (because you can't stick it to one without sticking it to the other.....hey, collateral damage happens.)

Had Favre simply been honest and instead of blubbering away on his March 4 retirement and said "Look, I don't want to play for the Packers anymore. I want to go to a team that has a bunch of veterans and is ready made for me to take to the super Bowl. I don't want to attend OTAs and minicamps and I don't want to be part of Ted Thompson's plan for this team" then all this could have been avoided.

People would have understood: Favre wants out. Fine. Trade him. But by trying to cast Thompson as the devious villain who orchestrated his departure he ended up polarizing the fan base and substantially eroding his support among the fans who had cheered him for 16 years.

Favre is a victim of his own ego and his own duplicity. If he wins a Super Bowl with the Vikings he'll probably feel it was worth it, but if he comes up short I think the day will come when he'll weigh what he gained against the damage done and wonder if it was worth it.

It is an ultimate irony that Favre may be remembered more fondly in Minnesota than he is in Green Bay. And if that's the case, then that should be remembered when there's a movement to retire this guy's number. I, for one, will never support that and I'd buy a ticket to the game just to boo loudly during the ceremony.
Today 02:16 PM

[Pack Fan in OH]

Originally Posted by Galileo

Yeah, facts really suck sometime but the fact is Favre didn't want to return to the Packers and his whole return to Green Bay was just to "force something in there and make a play" because the regular season was getting ready to start and he wanted to play for the Vikings.

The Packers had been trying to work out a trade but Favre had refused to give them a list of teams he'd be willing to accept a trade to. According to a Press-Gazette article Thompson had called a number of teams to see if they were interested (many were not).

This was all about forcing the Packers hand and getting his release. Once he finally got it driven into his swampbilly head that the Packers were not going to release him for nothing and they were not going to trade him to the Vikings he finally capitulated and said "OK, fine, work out a trade". And the trade was done in short order.

Favre went to the Jets but I doubt like hell he ever intended to end his career there or play more than one year for them. At that point, he was being driven by his desire to join the Vikings (who he'd had multiple discussions with over the past several months) and "stick it" to Thompson, the organization, the Packers and the fans (because you can't stick it to one without sticking it to the other.....hey, collateral damage happens.)

Had Favre simply been honest and instead of blubbering away on his March 4 retirement and said "Look, I don't want to play for the Packers anymore. I want to go to a team that has a bunch of veterans and is ready made for me to take to the super Bowl. I don't want to attend OTAs and minicamps and I don't want to be part of Ted Thompson's plan for this team" then all this could have been avoided.

People would have understood: Favre wants out. Fine. Trade him. But by trying to cast Thompson as the devious villain who orchestrated his departure he ended up polarizing the fan base and substantially eroding his support among the fans who had cheered him for 16 years.

Favre is a victim of his own ego and his own duplicity. If he wins a Super Bowl with the Vikings he'll probably feel it was worth it, but if he comes up short I think the day will come when he'll weigh what he gained against the damage done and wonder if it was worth it.

It is an ultimate irony that Favre may be remembered more fondly in Minnesota than he is in Green Bay. And if that's the case, then that should be remembered when there's a movement to retire this guy's number. I, for one, will never support that and I'd buy a ticket to the game just to boo loudly during the ceremony.
Today 02:16 PM

This post articulates my sentiments and understanding of the situation exactly. I also would like to boo him during any GB award ceremony. I live near Canton and was able to be there when Reggie (may he rest in peace) went into the hall. When Favre goes in I'd really like to attend wearing an Aaron Rodgers Jersey. I think that would get the point accross better than any boos would.

[Farveulous]

It is an ultimate irony that Favre may be remembered more fondly in Minnesota than he is in Green Bay. And if that's the case, then that should be remembered when there's a movement to retire this guy's number. I, for one, will never support that and I'd buy a ticket to the game just to boo loudly during the ceremony

And this from fans that like to claim they are the class of the NFL?

Disgusting.

The Packers decided they didn't want Favre, they even went so far as to buy him off to keep him from playing.

Favre gave everything he had to the Packers while he was a Packer. For that, if nothing else, he deserves the respect due to a former player who led the Packers to so many wins.

[kainen]

Originally Posted by Farveulous

Favre gave everything he had to the Packers while he was a Packer.

Apparently he did not give everything. The proof is in his own words quoted in many recent articles. Do yourself a favor and pick up this week's Sports Illustrated. It's right there in black and white, and surrounded by quotation marks.

Is he talented...damn straight. But for a guy so talented, to refuse for 16 years to do the basic work necessary to take his game to the next level is a crime AND it cheated us all - fans and organization. Sadly, he cheated himself too, and that is something I don't think he will ever understand.

Funny...all the dirt eventually comes out in the wash.

[Barry]

Originally Posted by Farveulous

Favre gave everything he had to the Packers while he was a Packer. For that, if nothing else, he deserves the respect due to a former player who led the Packers to so many wins.

Really? Skipping countless OTAs and holding the team hostage while deciding if he wanted to play another year over the course of several off-seasons is "giving it everything he had"?

What a complete and total crock of shit.

[cgc73]

Want to echo what Barry and Kainen have said.

One would have to cover one's eyes and ignore the evidence in front of them this year to claim that Favre "gave the Packers everything he had". He's playing disciplined football this year, golly, disciplined football is in the guy after all -- it sure didn't seem to be on top of his priority list while he was in GB. That's not giving the Packers everything he had. I'm sure he was "tired" at the end of every game but he sure didn't seem to care much about growing as a player as he aged.

The very adoration that some people give Favre really underlines just how absurd the "he gave us everything he had!" type of arguments are. There are people still loyal to him even in a Vikings uniform, those individuals have given Favre plenty. In GB there's a street named after him. The Packers have paid him PLENTY o' dough. His name was an absolute cinch to go up in the ring of honor. His number is going to be retired. But it's all about what Favre "gave the Packers." I'd say the organization gave him plenty back in return, wouldn't you? It's a complete two way street and towards the end all Favre gave the Packers was non-commital responses every off-season, sometimes all the way through the freaking draft. I mean think about this, for something like 6 years running now he's pulled the same: "I don't know if I want to play next year" stuff during the off-season. Can anybody think of another player in the history of the NFL who had that long of a running drama about their playing status? That's a real disservice to the Packers and the fans.

[Mike F]

but it doesn't make the GBP a damn bit better. He's not here. He's a spoiled bastard, a sinner and pampered ego manic, most sports heros are. Guess what he choked and blew it in the end. Well here's the catch. Quit using him as a footstool for Rodgers. Rodgers is a good young QB. He went one and done and well yes, hell yes, he too blew it in the end. But because Favre is a bastard, doesn't make losing any better.

One more thing, there are no saints, the closest thing you'll ever see in GB was White. Rodgers isn't a diva? You'll find as time passes and with success, Rodgers too is a diva. It just takes time to see everyone's warts. Favre is done, he's going to the HOF, maybe we can let it go finally.

[triplet1]

Originally Posted by Mike F

but it doesn't make the GBP a damn bit better. He's not here. He's a spoiled bastard, a sinner and pampered ego manic, most sports heros are. Guess what he choked and blew it in the end. Well here's the catch. Quit using him as a footstool for Rodgers. Rodgers is a good young QB. He went one and done and well yes, hell yes, he too blew it in the end. But because Favre is a bastard, doesn't make losing any better.

One more thing, there are no saints, the closest thing you'll ever see in GB was White. Rodgers isn't a diva? You'll find as time passes and with success, Rodgers too is a diva. It just takes time to see everyone's warts. Favre is done, he's going to the HOF, maybe we can let it go finally.

Boy, I would hope so, but there's no evidence of it -- at least not today.

For the record, I too was struck by the similarity of this. I saw two quarterbacks who each made two costly turnovers, including a turnover on what turned out to be their team's final offensive snap of the game. I also saw two quarterbacks who took a lot of punishment and kept coming back for more, making a lot of difficult plays on the road in loud, hostile places. Each played a critical role in putting their teams in a position to even win those games in the first place, and both showed real character in doing so. Of course, most fans don't want to focus on that.

It's not the "diva" players, it's fan expectations that are getting totally out of whack IMO.