Wonder What Could have Been

[Whitehurst2002]

Good evening one and all... congrats to the Saints for winning Super Bowl 44. It was a decent game... although I found it hard to watch... just because I truly felt the Pack should have been playing in it.

This brings me to the purpose of my post. I wonder had we hired Sean Payton rather than McCarthy if we would have been in this game. This is truly no slam on McCarthy... I just think Payton is the better coach and we would be in better shape had we hired him back in 2005. I guess we will never know… but tonight’s game made me wonder.

I hope that McCarthy proves me wrong next season... however, tonight belongs to the Saints and good for them, especially after that entire city has gone through so much over the past four years.

Have a good night one and all.

[retiredgrampa]

I had the same thought at the start of this game. The on-side kick starting the 3rd was not only genius (because it worked) but gave the Saints new hope and more confidence. I can't see MM trying it, except in circumstances when everyone expects it. At least, not in the SB. The stakes are too high. The Saints tried it because they felt they had nothing to lose...most everyone EXPECTED them to lose. Why not try? In the 3rd Q, I remarked that the only real hope the Saints had was a big mistake by the Colts. That mistake was the INT. I'm happy for the Saints. They earned it.

[kainen]

uummm...correct me if I'm wrong, but M3 DID use an unexpected onside kick in the playoff game - with success I might add.

I have issues with him, too, sometimes but overall he is not a bad coach. Kept our team together after a rocky start this year, kept that other guy in line two years ago to post a 13-3 record.

Hey, the world is full of wouldas and shouldas. It surely could be much worse, my friend.

People get on his case for the "we'll fix that" line, but I would rather he said noncommittal things in pressers than toss players and others in the organization under the bus (see our neighbor to the north).

Our organization keeps things in-house and behind closed doors. I prefer that to a blow hard like Rex Ryan or Bill Belicheck anyday.

Is he perfect? NO. Is Sean Payton perfect? NO. He just happens to be the darling right now because of the season he had and the Super Bowl win.

In all reality, we don't have Payton as a coach. We have M3. I don't like the woulda, shoulda or what might have been game. It's a bit too fantasyland for me.

Add to it the fact that we were in the playoffs this year and many other teams were not. The players play the game. There are more coaches on the staff. You cannot pine away for what is not i.e. the Packers in Super Bowl #44. And you cannot blame one man for them not being there.

So the old adage "If wishes were fishes, beggers would eat" seems to be apropos here.

[pkrbkr]

I think that Payton has done a better job in these first years than MM.
That being said, I don't know if we would have been in the SB this year.
Only time will tell if Payton is really a better coach than MM, but up to
this point in time, he certainly has accomplished more.

[NYPACKER]

Originally Posted by pkrbkr

I think that Payton has done a better job in these first years than MM.
That being said, I don't know if we would have been in the SB this year.
Only time will tell if Payton is really a better coach than MM, but up to
this point in time, he certainly has accomplished more.

...best thing that he's done is the hiring of Greg Williams. Although Capers brings the proven scheme. Williams seems to do that but also brings a ton of emotion to the defense which doesn't seem to be Capers personality.

[Mike F]

It's a testament to the stupidity of the collective or herd wisdom. Most of them will lie about it or shall we say use selective memory, but the herd was squarely behind a nut in Jim Bates who almost ended up with the job. Payton was the best choice, but given there apparently was heavy board support for Bates, who remember the GBPG announced got the job and was in intense communication with Favre making promises. Still seems likely MM was a compromise candidate.


That said, MM isn't a bad coach, just arrogant to the point of blindness as in the case of Campen. Campen is a joke and has produced 1 in 11 tries with young offensive lineman. The idea that people want to move up and overpay for a young tackle to hand over to this guy, is just stupid. This is one of the things a GM has to do when a coach can't or won't. Does anyone really think Ron Wolf would allow James Campen to do what he has to the Packers?

[reck]

Aint hindsight grand? In the off season McCarthy was hired, a total of 10 HC were hired in the NFL and they were, Oakland: Art Shell; Detroit: Rod Marinelli; St. Louis: Scott Linehan; Kansas City: Herm Edwards; Buffalo: Dick Jauron; N.Y. Jets: Eric Mangini; Houston: Gary Kubiak; queens: Brad Childress; New Orleans: Sean Payton; and McCarthy.

Four remain in those jobs: McCarthy and Payton are 38-26 in regular-season games, with Childress just a tick back at 36-28. McCarthy & Childress are both 1-2 in playoffs, both taking their teams to the NFC Championship game. Payton has led two teams to conference championship games and of course, a NFL Championship. Kubiak's record is 31-33*.

Three coaches on this list were on Thompson's list, McCarthy, Payton, and Childress, arguably the best three (remember the queens signed chilly before his Green Bay interview and I'm still glad they did). Would I prefer now that Thompson would have chosen Payton, who he interviewed before McCarthy? Absolutely I would in hindsight. Was I happy with the McCarthy choice at the time? No, wasn't because I didn't think his resume to that point justified the hiring.

But does Thompson get any credit for identifying three of the top 10 candidates that off season even if he didn't hire who appears to be the very best of the bunch? IMO he should.

(*parts of this paragraph were swiped from Packer Report - so no link.)

[retiredgrampa]

The question of whether Payton would have stood still when looking at our OL shortfalls? I doubt it. Belicheck, Cowher, Dungy, et al, would NOT, IMO because they have always in their minds...how to IMPROVE! Fair to good is not good enough. MM has decided to give Campen and Slocum another year to improve their coaching. They, on the other hand, are praying for an influx of new talent to improve their areas. They've done all their talents will allow. It borders on stupidity to just HOPE for improvement in this league. MM has, IMO, sentenced us to another year of just hoping for internal improvement. Our disappointment may well carry over into 2010 season.

[think]

Had to LOL at the MM wouldn't try an onside kick.

Didn't TT try to hire Greg Williams?

I've called for MM to be fired because he won't adjust when his game plan doesn't work but we could have done worse.

[weeds]

I'll admit that I thought about that very thing, Whitehurst.

However, I don't think that the Packers would have beat New Orleans. I'm of the opinion that the very thing that happened to Arizona, would have happened to Green Bay.

[Esox]

Originally Posted by think

Didn't TT try to hire Greg Williams?

MM did--along with Nolan--but Williams apparently let his family decide. His kids wanted NO. There was some chatter here about how difficult it can be to lure quality talent (coaches or players) to GB due to the cultural limitations. We could probably revisit that conversation again for the premise of this thread.

As reck pointed out, there were 10 teams looking for HC's that year. Payton was the golden boy assistant and had his pick of them. As Mike F alluded to, I think the board wanted to appease #4, which made MM a more viable candidate. Let's face it, at that time, the new Packers HC was going to have to deal with a lot of baggage. Payton made the safe decision in NO because they had a clean slate and he really couldn't do any worse. HE would be calling the shots--not a player.

The only things that bothers me about MM are the penalties and Campen. Remember though, Jags was supposed to install the ZBS for MM but he took off right before the season and left the team in a bad spot. They've never recovered and they were stuck with trying to make it work. Should have given up on the ZBS earlier, but that's hindsight. The penalties are absolutely inexcusable.

Overall, I'm confident the Packers can win a superbowl with MM. He seems capable of learning from his mistakes.

[reck]

McCarthy should get a good measure of credit for Rodgers’ development – that shouldn’t be taken for granted. However, I agree he has a huge blind spot with Campen. How can he objectively review the job his assistant coaches’ have done and conclude Campen has done a good job developing OL acquired since he’s been OL coach?

BTW, they weren’t stuck with the ZBS and it’s not hindsight to say so. When Jags left, I suggested either bringing in the “founder” of the ZBS or dumping it and I wasn’t alone posting that point of view.

[bulldog]

(Payton made the safe decision in NO because they had a clean slate and he really couldn't do any worse. HE would be calling the shots--not a player)

So Your saying Payton did not take the Green bay job because of #4.

[reck]

I don't have any reason to believe Thompson offered Payton the job – does anyone else? I believe Thompson interviewed Payton in the week before he first interviewed McCarthy. If Payton interviewed with the Packers, didn’t get a call back for a second interview and then interviewed with the Saints and was offered the job, that was pretty much a slam dunk for him, wasn’t it? Thompson didn’t get to interview Childress but other than that I think Thompson interviewed whomever he wanted and got his choice.

[Esox]

Originally Posted by reck

BTW, they weren’t stuck with the ZBS and it’s not hindsight to say so. When Jags left, I suggested either bringing in the “founder” of the ZBS or dumping it and I wasn’t alone posting that point of view.

I remember that, and since I wasn't a fan of the ZBS from the get go (most fans weren't) I agreed with your suggestion. But TT began drafting OL for the ZBS and it must have been something MM had been preparing for. When I say "stuck" I'm really thinking that there was enough intertia that TT/MM decided to ride it out. We don't know that Alex Gibbs wasn't contacted to take over. But you're right--most of us never liked the system. So we can pat ourselves on the back for being right, I guess. No hind sight needed.

[Mike F]

and frankly he's got to be a hell of lot better than Jim Campen, especially since he apparently was taught the secrets or proprietary on zbs. But that's just part of the problem, there version of the ZBS has been watered down anyway. Further, it doesn't explain the pass blocking woes and it doesn't explain the regression of so many of the young guys.

I really think moving up or reaching at 23 for a LT is a recipe for disaster with Campen and JF, they just aren't coaching material and trying to get a guy ready to play with those two makes no sense. I would far rather tag and trade Kampman to NOLA for another injured guy like Brown or even go after Tra Thomas.

[zod]

Originally Posted by Mike F

and frankly he's got to be a hell of lot better than Jim Campen, especially since he apparently was taught the secrets or proprietary on zbs. But that's just part of the problem, there version of the ZBS has been watered down anyway. Further, it doesn't explain the pass blocking woes and it doesn't explain the regression of so many of the young guys.

He bailed because he thought M3 was a doofus. I'm not sure why he would change his opinion.

[Esox]

Originally Posted by zod

He bailed because he thought M3 was a doofus. I'm not sure why he would change his opinion.

Yeah, there's no way Jags ever comes back to GB. Jags has either failed miserably (Tampa Bay) or burned bridges like Genghis Kahn (BC and Packers) in his last three gigs. I just don't see him getting another job for a quality organization. Since he's got cheese in his blood, it's too bad.

BTW, Gibbs is now the OL coach for Seattle.

Either way, I think everyone agrees that MM needs to get a new OL coach and focus more on power running. The ZBS, though it worked in DEN, is still better suited for artificial turf.

[Mike F]

Yes MS fired him as he thought he was disloyal, but MM brought him back and hand picked him to install the ZBS. He got it and the secrets from Gibbs. He's and arrogant hard headed ass, but MM knew that and they were and continue from all accounts to be buddies, says something about MM. He left to take the HC job at his Alma Mater BC. The Jets were intrigued, BC told him if he interviewed they'd fire him he did and they sent him packing at BC. So Tampa hired him and didn't work, but they fired several people, the HC seems insecure, the team bought MC united the owner that is, they are in debt and a mess. I don't know how much you can read into the tampa thing. He brought the freaking ZBS. He's and ass and frankly I'm not sure MM isn't one too, but he's competent. Jim Campen is clearly incompetent. The only thing saving him is MM's refusal to admit he's made a mistake.

What did I miss, he's available and competent v Jim Campen who is completely incompetent.